Place blogs for chapters 22-24 here.
Holden relates to younger children much more and better than he does with adults. When Holden comes home to see Phoebe, he can relate to her and have a decent conversation with her. Holden’s relationship with adults is much different. Holden is timid and does not let his guard down. What does everyone think the reason for this is?
Holden definitely has a different way of connecting with children than with adults. He seems to think most adults are phonies. At the same time he’s better with kids, he sees them as innocent so that’s what makes them and Holden connect so much better I think.
Holden may work with children better than adults because he understands them more. Holden understands why a kid acts the way they do, but he does not realize that adulthood has to be taken seriously and not as a childhood anymore.
I think it has to do with the whole catcher in the rye. Him wanting to help and save little kids. He just naturally has a better connection with younger kids than he does with older. I think it has a lot to do with the innocence thing and him not wanting to grow up either.
Holden might want to be the catcher in the rye because of the deaths he has witnessed. His little brother Allie died along with him seeing the body of James Caslte laying on the steps of the school. This may be why Holden wants to help save kids.
Holden does relate to children better than adults and I think this is because he knows the innocence that a child has and he does not want to have a child loose that as they get older. I think that Holdens dream of being a “catcher in the rye” would work well for him.
Holden may act this way towards adults because he doesn’t really have a good relationship with his parents, which is why he gets along with children better. Children are all innocent in Holden’s eyes, while adults are the exact opposite. Just about every adult Holden sees he believes they are phonies, but he doesn’t view children in that way. Maybe something happened to him to make his act this way toward adults. After the situation with Mr. Antolini, Holden reveals that something similar had happened to him over twenty times when he was a child. It could have been minor or more serious than we all think.
Very good point Brooke. I think Holden can’t really associate and talk with adults because his lack of relationship with his parents. Then he has great relationships with Phoebe and Allie so he knows how to act around younger people. Innocence plays a big part in all of this too, he see’s innocence in the children.
I do agree with you Brooke. I think that he tries to hangout with adults to try and fill that void of him not getting along with his parents. In Holden’s eyes children are innocent but to him adults are not. He thinks that adults are phonies but he doesn’t view the kids like that.
Greg, I agree with all of this. The hint that we read at end of chapter 24 leads me to why Holden is so timid around adults and has a harder time relating to them. On the last couple of pages in chapter 24, Holden is sleeping on Mr. Antolini’s couch, and he ends up waking up to Mr. Antolini was sort of petting him and patting him on the head. Holden jumped up and was yelling at him. And then in the last paragraph on page 193, Holden says “I was shaking like a madman. I was sweating, too. When something perverty like that happens I start sweating like a bastard. That kind of stuff’s happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid. I can’t stand it.”
I was shocked with the hint on chapter 24. I think it may lead to why Holden is weird around adults and has trouble relating and opening up to them. Holden freaks out when Mr.Antolini was sort of petting his head. Holden started yelling at him when this took place. He said “That kind of stuff’s happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid I can’t stand it.” I wonder what went on with child hood,that he freaks out like that.
That is a good point Greg. I definitely see that now that you said it. Holden is still stuck in childhood and this is one of the signs. He cannot hold a good conversation with adults. An example of him not being able to talk to adults is when he talks to Luce. Then he talks to Phoebe and actually can relate and talk to her.
I think Holden can trust younger kids because he feels like they are truthful about everything. He feels like none of the kids are phony because they have no reason to become phonies. Holden also relates to younger kids because they understand him better then adults. Holden just fits in with children better because he is more passion to younger children since the death of his little brother Allie.
Holden is still in childhood, even though he should be grown up. Holden does relate to younger kids better than adults. This is because he sees the innocence in them. Phoebe is one of the few people that he enjoys talking to. It is sad to see the way Holden has been acting lately in the book.
That is very true, Holden likes the innocence of the children and likes knowing they are not going to lie and feel disappointed with Holden. Children do not judge people as much as adults and people Holden’s age will.
I agree he relates to children in a way that only he can understand. I think he is happier when he is with them and doesn’t feel judged with them and and he feels as though he can help them.
I think Holden overreacted about the whole situation with Mr. Antolini. He wasn’t being inappropriate or anything, instead he was acting more like a father who is concerned for his child. Holden is defiantly bothered by something, whether it is from the death of his brother or witnessing the death of James Castle. Mr. Antolini gives Holden very wise advise, sharing an important quote with him. “The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one” (Salinger 188). I think Holden acts this way even though Mr. Antolini is a family friend and his teacher at one time, because something had happened to him that was close to this incident or worse. “That kind of stuff’s happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid. I can’t stand it” (Salinger 193).
Holden definitely overreacted but made it very clear he was uncomfortable. I think that he may have meant that Mr. Antolini has done fatherly stuff before for Holden. He was there when James Castle jumped out the window so maybe Mr. Antolini was there for Allie’s death too considering he’s a family friend.
Yeah there sure is a lot going on in Holden’s head I’m not quite sure what is happening in his life. We will find out soon as to what has happened in his life.
I feel like that is why he acted the way he did towards Mr. Antolini. If something had happened like that in the past that could explain why Holden jumped up and left. Though I do think that there might be other factors in why Holden is acting the way he does.
You’re definitely right, Brooke, however I don’t feel as if he overreacted. I think he reacted the same way as any other teenage boy would if an older man started touching their head and staring at them while they slept. I mean, I don’t feel as though Mr. Antolini was being a pervert. I think you’re right about Mr. Antolini just acting as a parent figure, it just freaked Holden out because as you said he most likely experienced something like this as a child. As for Mr. Antolini, he definitely gave some useful advice to Holden and even for the readers, too.
I agree Nicole. If I were in Holden’s place, I think I would have reacted like he did. Maybe not as bad as he did, but if an older man was just sitting beside me and petting my hair while I was sleeping, I’d be freaked out. I also see why others are saying he did overreact because Holden left in the midle of the night because of past experiences.
I think Holden over reacted because of his past. When he said “That kind of stuff’s happened to me about twenty times since I was a kid. I can’t stand it” I feel like he has been sexually abused many times when he was a child. Mr. Antolini was just doing what fathers do. He was trying to make Holden feel at home and comfort him.
I don’t know quite yet enough to agree with you. It may not have been sexual abuse but he may have just had some exposure to it around New York.
Definitely … I can’t spell today!!!
I think that he was trying to be a father figure towards Holden and not a pervert.
I think Holden over reacted but I understand why he did. He has been through so much in his life that every small action can be a huge deal to him. He found it creepy and perverted that Mr. Antolini was sitting there while he was sleeping, when in reality he was just showing that he cared abut Holden.
Holden definability overreacted to Mr. Antolini during the night. Mr. Antolini is only trying to look out for Holden because he is worried that Holden is moving down the wrong path. If Mr. Antolini wanted to sexually assault Holden he would of more then likely done it in the past., because this is not the first time Holden has ever came over. Mr. Antolini is just a family friend that wants to see Holden grow up and get his life back on track, He is definability not a pedophile.
I do think that Holden did overreact about the situation with Mr.Antolini. Mr.Antolini was acting like a dad to Holden,I think this is way he kind of freaked out maybe because he is scared to have another father figure in his life. So he just freaks out.
I gotta agree with you Brooke, I think he did over react. To try to understand it, I relate it to me. What would I have done. Of course we can all say “He freaked out” and we’re small town kind loving kids. For Kids like Holden, they live in New York City for cripes sake. Holden’s reaction was just a self defense mechanism
Holden does overreact with the situation with Mr. Antolini. I don’t believe that Mr. Antolini was being inappropriate. I think that he was just being a fatherly type of person with Holden.
When Mr. Antolini touches Holden’s head while asleep Holden freaks out. He says that kind of stuff happened to him about twenty times since he was a kid. It sounds like Holden was harassed at a young age, this could be the reason why he is so negative towards older people.
What if it was just an older man who did this to him. He seems to always call the guys phonies. He is more negative towards the men than he is towards the women. If it was constantly a man that did stuff to Holden, that could be the reason he reacted the way he did towards Mr. Antolini, not wanting to stay and talk about what he was really doing.
This could be why he is so sexually shy and when he has a chance he won’t do it and backs out.
Amanda I thought about this as well! I think that even though he has had chances he won’t take them. Maybe something did happen to him as a child and this is why he is so scared now!
Older people definitely intimidate Holden, something has happened to Holden that has made a very important impact on him. I am excited to see what has happened.
In chapter 24, we learn something different about Holden. While he was sleeping at Mr. Antolini’s, Holden felt some guy’s hand on his head. Holden says that Mr. Antolini was sort of patting him on the head. Holden did not like this at all. He took it the wrong way. Mr. Antolini is concerned about Holden because he knows everything that is going on in Holden’s life. Holden also tells us at the end of the chapter that this kind of stuff has happened to him about twenty times since he was a kid.
I think that Holden overreacted to Mr. Antolini petting him. Mr. Antolini is drunk so maybe he is not acting himself. Also Mr. Antolini just really cares about Holden and knows he is smart and could have a very bright future if he gets his life on track. Mr. Antolini is the one trying to help Holden get back on track. Hopefully they explain more about what happened to him in his childhood about being sexually assaulted like twenty times. Maybe this is why he ends up in the mental hospital.
I don’t think that Holden overreacted at all. If perverts have touched him before then it is alright for him to be scared. It is kind of strange that the man just started petting Holden while he was asleep. If Holden feels uncomfortable then he should be able to remove himself from a situation, which he did.
When Holden talks about the death of James Castle, he doesn’t react like a normal person would. “I was in the shower and all, and even I could hear him land outside. But I just thought something fell out the window, a radio or a desk or something, not a boy or anything. Then I heard everybody running through the corridor and I ran downstairs too, and there was old James Castle laying right on the stone steps and all. He was dead, and his teeth, and blood, were all over the place, and nobody would even go near him” (Salinger 170). I think this horrible incident hurt Holden even more, making his life much more depressing.
The death with James Castle was nothing easy for Holden that’s for sure. It definitely didn’t help any more with Allie’s death then Holden experiencing this. I think this has a lot to do with how Holden reacts to certain people and how he thinks and sees little kids. Neither James nor Allie’s death were intentional, and they were both kids, innocent.
Holden is most for sure in a emotional all time low right now. Then again how could he not be. This poor kid is trying to deal with the death of his younger brother, then out of no where a fellow class mate killed himself. Holden being a young child having to deal with all of this stress without any help from his parents and friends has really taken affect on his well being. This is why it is hard for Holden to connect with certain people.
Holden is going through a lot of things right now and I think that him talking about the death of James Castle helps because he is letting his feelings out and they are no longer building up. Holden still keeps some things in but at least we are seeing a little bit of change.
I wonder if James’ death was close to Allie’s death. Allie’s death had already sent Holden into a little bit of depression. If this happened around the same time of Allie’s death or a few years after then Holden was probably still emotionally unstable and it just made it worse. Holden has a weird way of talking about death. He talks about it as if it were normal.
Holden definitely doesn’t know how to deal with death. If I was in his situation I wouldn’t be able to deal with it either. The reason for Holden’s actions is because he is depressed and it all started when Allie passed away.
James and Allies death must have deffinetaly played a role in Holden’s mental state. After seeing that much death it must have made it pretty hard for him to do anything with out being depressed.
He has definitely witnessed many tragedies in his life. He has almost became numb to it in my opinion. Every death he has witnessed has impacted him greatly but he does not know how to handle it or cope with it.
I like to think his way off acting so calmly about the whole suicide incident is his way of coping with the ordeal. He also uses his imagination to cope with things too, like after he was beaten up by the pimp he imagined he was shot.
Holden also mentions how Mr. Antolini was the first one to pick up James Castle after he jumped out the window and committed suicide. He said he didn’t even care if blood got on his jacket. I think this shows that Mr. Antolini is definitely a caring guy and someone who is fatherly. By giving Holden advice, it shows that he wants Holden to do something with his life and not “fall”. Holden definitely needs someone like this in his life to motivate him.
While Holden is talking to Phoebe, we learn that Holden wants to stand on the edge of some crazy cliff and catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff. He says he would just come out of nowhere and catch them. He says, “I’d be the catcher in the rye and all. I know it’s crazy, but that’s the only thing I’d really like to be. I know it’s crazy.”
We finally find out what the meaning of the title of the book means. Holden figures out what he wants to do. The whole cliff is just a metaphor obviously. He is talking about saving kids lives and futures when they are going through a rough part in their life he will help them get through it and get back on track. That is what I think he is talking about anyway.
Holden wants to save kids and help them get through a rough time in their life. This is definitely something Holden could do because he knows what it is like to go through a devastating time and he has been through it, so he could use that experience to help other kids get through a simular situation.
This shows how Holden is to kids. It shows that he would do anything to protect kids and make them happy. Even though he would be putting himself in danger he would still be doing what he enjoys.
I think this is really weird. Am I the only one who doesn’t know what a rye is? I get the symbolism here, though. It shows that Holden wants to save little kids from growing up and the evils of the world whether it be death, sex or just people in general.
This part of the book really ties everything together. Holden really just wants to save everyone from now on because he couldn’t save Allie or James.
Yeah with the way Holden veiws inocence he does not want anyone to loose it. He wants little kids especialy to be oblivous to what the world around them actually is. By doing that it would make him feel better about everyones life.
The poem by Robert Burns relates to Holden and the book, “If a body meet a body coming through the rye.” When Holden hears this poem he starts daydreaming about a bunch of little kids playing a game in a field or rye. He is the only older person around, standing by the cliff, catching the kids that start to go over. Holden wants to save innocent children, making a difference in their lives. What is your opinion?
I like this side of Holden. He wants to help children in distress. All the bad events that he has experienced has brought him to this point in his life. His brother Allie’s death was the biggest influence on this. Also the James Castle event that Holden has witnessed. James committed suicide by jumping out of a window and Holden had watched that happen at a very young age. He wants to “catch” the children that are standing by the cliff so they don’t jump. He wants them to keep the innocence that they have, and wants them to have a good life unlike him.
Holden wants to save the children because they are still young and innocent. He believes he can save them from society and them becoming phonies. He does not want to view them as phonies as he does all of the adults in the world.This is the main reason why he likes being around children more than anyone. It’s not that he is weird or strange, he just wants to catch them before they fall into the state of how he views everyone else.
I feel like you are spot on with this post Brooke. This shows that in the mind of Holden he wants to do everything in his power to help save younger children. We see many times throughout the story were Holden has connected with many different younger children helping them out in some way. My opinion is that Holden is trying to become a better man and take care of these younger children, so they don’t feel alone like he has in the past.
Am I the only one that finds the conversation between Phoebe and her mother a little weird. Her mother says, “Phoebe, have you been smoking a cigarette in here? Tell me the truth, please, young lady.” She responded with “I just lit one for one second. I just took one puff. Then I threw it out the window.” Her mother says, “I don’t like that, Phoebe. I don’t like that at all. Do you want another blanket?” I just find it weird that that’s all she said to Phoebe. My mom would have not been that calm about the situation.
I agree, Paige. How old is Phoebe? Like 10, right? She said that she lit up a cigarette for just one second. I also feel like any other parents would have freaked out, and not just blow it off the way Phoebe’s mother did. I think it shows the type of parent she has become since the death of Allie. Almost as if she doesn’t want to try as hard anymore.
I thought the same thing. However, it shows how much Phoebe cares for Holden when she takes the blame for Holden smoking.
It was a little strange, but it seems like smoking is normal for everyone. Holden is only 16 and people offer him to smoke all the time. The time period seems like everyone smokes.
It’s crazy that their mom did not even care that Phoebe admitted to smoking a cigarette. It seems like thier parents are absent from her life as well.
Yeah and if he doesn’t have the smokes he has to bum them off someone else because he is that addicted.
Yeah that is very strange. Phoebe is extremely young. I cannot imagine if I had a daughter and I found out she was smoking. I would freak out honestly. There is no way I would be so nonchalant about it.
Yeah I could not believe that she was not more upset with her. In my house I would have flipped out on her but I also wonder if it was not the time period that made it that way and so laid back.
I found this situation to be very odd myself. The mother seems like she does not care as much as she had when Allie was alive. Its like a part of her had died with him, which is not unusual. But she has three more children that she needs to comfort and keep in line. I think that her action along with the fathers played a big role in the way Holden is now.
That entire situation is weird!!! She doesn’t really sound like a concerned parents, especially since her little girl said she smoked a cigarette. A normal parent would have been more upset than that, not staying so calm about the whole thing. I think Holden is not the only person hurting, his mother seems to be hurting as well. This could be why she hasn’t been acting like a normal parent would, because she is struggling with the death of her son.
Holden tells us at one point that is mother has still not recovered from the death of Allie. She was definitely way to calm considering her daughter said she smoked a cigarette. It’s not that she doesn’t care that her daughter says she smoked a cigarette, it’s that she can’t get her mind of the death of her son.
What do you guys think Holden has from a Psychological standpoint? When i say that i mean what type of mental illnesses do you think he has. I completely certain that he has some type of clinical depression that has been shown throughout the book. I think that he might also have some type of bipolar disorder, where he goes from bouts of mania to bouts of depression really quickly. What are your thoughts on this?
I’m not sure if he is depressed or not. It seems like he is very confused and lost. He has had a lot of tragic things happen in his life and he is only 17. I do have some sympathy for him. He has a lot of potential to be a great person and do great things. They events in his life and they way people handled him has led his mind through a rough path.
Taryn I feel the same exact way. Holden honestly does annoy me a lot but I feel so bad for him. I cannot imagine living the life he lives.
Holden definitely has great potential to do great things and be a great person, but the fact that he can’t accept the death of his brother is holding him back from doing those great things and being that great person. If he can learn to accept Allie’s death, he can come to realization and really start to turn his life around.
The reason I think he has depression is because of the two major traumatic events that has happened in his life. First the death of his brother and then the witnessing of suicide of James castle. To go through that at such a young age would be pretty tough and even harder when there a barely any parental figures around to help him through it. The main reason I think he has mania/bipolar disorder is because he has shown multiple times where he has blown up or gone off on people. The first being Stradlater and the second being Sally Hayes in which he was a rambling mess about running away.
I agree Holden goes through alot of death at such a young age, especially with the death of his younger brother I cant imagine what that must have been like for him. Holden also seems really lonley to me, he doesnt have many friends and is always contacting differnet women to be around.
Holden does show many signs being bipolar, but I think there is more wrong with him than just being bipolar.
Holden most likely took it wrong of Mr.Antolini being a pervert when he was spending the night and he was patting his head. Mr. Antolini was drunk when he did this and probabily was extra emotional because of this and he cares about Holden and his future, and was most likely acting out as a fatherly figure.
At first I thought he was being a creep. I think my opinion came from Holden’s reaction. After we talked about it in class I realized that he was a real father figure.
I thought he was being creepy too. I did not realize he was only concerned about Holden until after we talked about it either.
Yeah, at first I thought that the guy was just being a creep but then the more I thought about it the more it seemed like he was just being a father figure to Holden. The fact that he was incredibly drunk was probably a major factor in Mr.Antolini’s decision to pat his head in the first place. Holden’s reaction is understandable though, especially since it wasn’t his father who was patting him on the head. I mean i would freak out if it was my father patting me on the head while i slept. It would be just weird.
I would freak out in that situation, but we do know Mr. Antolini was drunk. I would have been a little weirded out but I don’t know if I would have left like that. Where would Holden even be going that late at night?
Holden and Mr. Antolini are are connected through several ways. Mr. Antolini was one of Holden former teachers, he was a friend of Holden’s dad and they were both on there when James Castle commited suicide. They bother know each other pretty well, what I don’t understand is why Holden freaked out so bad when Mr. Antolini was patting his head. Clearly the man was drunk and just cared about Holden. Although the situation was a little weird.
Holden seems to run from everyone who actually cares for him. I wonder why this is. Holden stays, at Mr. Antolini’s house after he leaves his parents. While he is sleeping, Mr. Antolini is patting his head and he awakes and starts freaking out and leaves. Mr. Antolini, cares for Holden a lot and we see that throught the conversation he has with Holden. I wonder why Holden always runs from the people that care about him the most.
Throughout the book he continues running away from the people who show they care for him. Maybe he keeps running away from them because he cared so much for Allie and he lost him. He does not want to be super close with them because he does not want to go through this same situation again.
Holden is very smart as we have been told time and time again, but if he would just accept the hep from others to get through the tragic events that happened he wouldn’t be running from his problems alll the time. He needs closure, but it seems like he does not want to accept it.
Yeah I wonder why. It’s almost like he runs away from everything. School included. It’s not like he isn’t smart. He flunks to get away from the school and all the “phony” people.
There has to be a connection between Holden’s problems and death. Seeing someone die or commit suicide can be pretty messed up. I watched someone get killed once and it gave me nightmares, I was so worried about that situation happening to me or my family. I could only imagine what Holden would be going through expecially with him not being able to handle death well.
I’m sorry you had to go through that Brittney, that is awful. I cannot imagine going through that. I guess you probably have a really good understanding of Holden.
I just know that it really is hard watching someone die even if you don’t know that person.
That image will probably be with you forever. Which is awful. It makes you think wow I’ll never be on the back of a pick up truck. Holden still thinks about doing things like that to himself, though. He also thinks about how his family would react.
Jeez That’s heavy Brittney…. I’m sorry you had to see that. Thank you for sharing that though. I think we are really starting to try to understand Holden now. Think of how we were at the beginning of this book! For me anyways, I”m understanding why he is the way he is, and he actually does have a purpose in life!
Holden relates to younger children much more and better than he does with adults. Holden understands why a kid acts the way they do but Holden needs to grow up so he can understands adults. Maybe he can understand adults because the Doctor couldn’t save his brother. So Holden can’t understand adults because of that.
I don’t understand why Holden freaks out on Mr. Antolini. Yes, I would be scared to0 if a grow man that’s not your father was rubbing my head. Holden knows Mr. Antolini very well and I don’t think that Mr. Antolini was rubbing Holden’s head to get turned on. He was rubbing his head because he did not want Holden to kill himself like James Castle.
Some of the things that happen I get confused by. When Phoebe’s mom doesn’t get super angry that she’s smoking that’s weird. But I have to keep thinking that his was a long time ago.
Yeah smoking is really looked down upon in this day of age. Back then it was just a normal everyday thing.
I was a little bit shocked by it as well but I guess in that time period and with how little their parents pay attention anyway it probably just seemed normal.
Holden honestly does annoy me a lot. When Holden says, “That killed me”, . I do feel sorry for Holden for what he went through though. Holden had his brother die and he had a friend commit suicide and he saw the body. He’s be in a lot of schools that he got kicked out of. Holden does not have a lot of friends that he can talk with. I hope he can find help or someone that he like to talk to.
Yeah Courtney’s got it right when she says Phoebe loves him. She’s basically the only one he trusts and loves! Think of Holden’s though, to catch kids as they are running towards a cliff? That is so loving and caring for him to think! He really does have dreams and could have an incredible future. He just needs guidance to get there.
Phoebe really cares for Holden and we see that a lot in these past few chapters. She wants Holden to succeed in school and she gets mad at him when she finds out that she flunked out again. She takes the blame for smoking a cigarette when it was Holden. She asks her mom all the time when Holden is coming home.The care that she has for Holden seems like it should be motivation for Holden to do better in school and life.
But I feel like the death of Allie is still on his shoulders so he still is going to be the same.
I think that after everything that Holden has witnessed with death the love that Phoebe has for Holden could never really mask the problem and the hurt he has.
Phoebe does really care for Holden. She begs him to stay and she continues to ask him if he will be at her play. Holden knows that she cares so much for him but he only cares a little about it.
I think that Holden over reacted when he freaked out about Mr. Antilleny petting his head I don’t think he is a perv he is just trying to be a father figure plus he was just really drunk.
I don’t feel like anything is going to change with Holden because he is going more down hill than up.
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