Place blogs for Chapters 19-21 here.
Do you guys think that Holden really missed Allies funeral because of his hand or maybe that he missed it because he couldn’t emotionally handle coming to terms with the death of his brother? Even with an injured hand he could’ve gone to the funeral. I think that he hasn’t officially come to terms with Allies death yet and thats one of the reasons he acts the way he does.
I most definitely think he missed the funeral because he could not emotionally handle that kind of situation. He did not want to believe that Allie would no longer be in his life. With an injured hand Holden very easily could have gone, but he did not want to see his brother dead.
I think Allie’s death is what may have lead to Holden being put in a mental institute. Holden may have never been able to get over Allie’s death.
I think him missing the funeral had a huge impact too. The funeral is what allows and provides closure, which is something he has not had.
I think that if Holden had the opportunity to go to Allie’s funeral, he may not have been so depressed and may not have grown up the way he has.
I know if i didnt attend the funeral I wouldnt feel the closure like deebs said.
I think he missed because he could handle the death of his little brother. The death of a loved one, especially a younger brother is hard for anyone to deal with. So this makes me think that he didn’t wanna go to the funeral. Like you said even with a broken hand he could have of gone. I also agree that him not getting over his brothers death effects him a ton.
What does the text say? There is a lot of “I think.” Read that part again.
I think that Holden missed the funeral because he couldn’t handle the fact that his brother was dead. He didn’t want to except it. He didn’t come to terms with the death of his brother. His hand being injured wasn’t that big of an emergency for him to go the funeral is more important. I personally think that he acts this way because he hasn’t excepted the death of Allie yet so he is learning how to cope.
I was thinking maybe his parents wouldn’t let him go. He talks about how they wouldn’t let Phoebe go to Holden’s funeral because she is so young, but wasn’t Holden around the same age at that time?
Taryn, that is very true. I did not even think about that. He was young when his brother died. There could be many contributing factors to why he didn’t attend the funeral, but in the book it says he was in the hospital during that time.
I was thinking the same thing. He might have been too young to really know what exactly was going on at the funeral. However, the text says that Holden missed Allie’s funeral because he was in the hospital.
I also thought that maybe he just cannot cope with the thought of his brother leaving him. I know I couldn’t. Holden’s hand may have been really bad, but I still would have tried to make the funeral.
I agree with what you are saying. Holden could have made it to Allie’s funeral if he wanted. He may have not been able to because of how close he and Allie were. His parents may not have let him go either, like Taryn said, so they made him stay in the hospital.
That could be one big reason for his absence at his brother’s funeral. It would be hard for anyone to watch their loved one be buried in the ground, especially his little brother. When he had first heard the new of Allie’s death, Holden had broke every window in the garage, which proves that he is unable to emotionally handle the loss of his brother. Obviously a hand injury isn’t a life or death situation, so he could have attended his brothers funeral.
I think that Holden could have gone to the funeral if he really wanted too, but he just couldn’t handle it mentally and emotionally. I don’t think Holden can accept the fact that his brother passed away. You can kind of see that when he gets mad about his brother being buried in a grave yard. You see a side of Holden we haven’t seen yet. He said he would rather get thrown into a lake than to be buried in a grave yard with so many other men and women.
Yes me too Amanda I think he could have went to the funeral. It was just a broken hand so I think he could have made it. I am with you on the fact that Holden cant accept the fact that his little brother passed away. He really liked his little brother and then obviously it hurts because he is his brother whether he liked him or not and then he was so young. I don’t really get why he gets so mad about the grave yard and then says the whole through me in a lake when I die. I don’t really get that but thats just Holden he says a lot of crazy things.
Holden did not go to the funeral. He did this because he was worked up and did not feel as if he was ready to make this climb of persistence that is needed to get over the loss of someone.
I think that had a lot to do with it. He couldn’t go to his brothers funeral and have to face the fact that Allie was really dead. He made up this excuse instead but I don’t think he’s even come to terms with his brothers death even at this point in his life. It’s kind of sad when you think about it and nobody has helped him through it especially not his parents so no wonder he acts the way he does.
That may be true but I thought in the book they said that he was stuck in the hospital from bashing the windows out in the garage.
I think that Holden couldn’t emotionally deal with the death of his brother because of how close they were to each other. He didn’t want to face the reality that Allie was gone and so it was just easier for him to just not go.
I believe that Holden actually had to miss the funeral because of his hand. I also believe that this is the part of the reason why Holden is having so much trouble with the closer he needs to have a healthy state of mind.
I think i know what is going to end up happening he is going to go to the physiologist and he is going to claim him crazy and thats why he is in the luny bin anyone else think of anything?
I think that maybe he will take Luce’s advice and get psychoanalysed. Maybe its Luce’s father who actually analyses him. All I know for sure is that either him or his parents probably have him checked out by a psychiatrist which then leads him going to a mental home.
I think it is going to be his parents that send him to the mental hospital. When he finally comes home everything is going to blow up and I think that this will cause his parents to make an appointment with a psychiatrist. While he is at the psychiatrist they will find out that the death of his brother is the cause of his madness. Then they put him in the mental hospital so he can try and deal with his problems.
When Luce mentioned something about his father being a psychoanalyst, I thought the same thing, maybe he went to Luce’s father and was psychoanalyzed and then thats how he ended up in the mental hospital. Although Jenny’s point is very probable to, it could’ve been his parents that sent him to have it done.
Thats a good prediction Jenny. I am with you on that. I believe that Holden will come home his parents will blow up on him and find out what he has been doing and what happened at Pencey. Then they will send him to the mental institution. This seems like a reasonable prediction of how he gets in the mental institution but it just a guess because right now I have no clue what is actually going to happen. It will definitely be interesting to see what happens and how he gets put in the mental hospital.
Noah, I thought the same thing. I think he knows that he is crazy! But, I think that he is waiting for the phycologist to tell him that he is.
Thats a good prediction. However I don’t know if he is going to necessarily just tell if he’s kinda crazy. Holden never shows who he is to other people in the story. All this craziness is in his head. I think we are on the right track with that thought though.
Thats why i think when he goes there he is going to tell him what is in his head and he is going to get sent into to luny bin.
That is a very good point Casey, Holden does not show or tell how his true personality is towards other people. The story is starting to take an interesting turn.
That could be a possibility, or maybe his parents are that ones who send him to a mental facility. Something could take place at home that causes his parents to view Holden as mentally unstable. We definitely know something is mentally wrong with him, but that all could be from his brother’s death. He has a hard time dealing with the loss of his brother, which is why he broke all the windows in the garage, so maybe something triggers another outburst of emotions like this one.
I honestly believe that he will admit himself into the mental institute. Holden KNOWS that he is crazy. He has already said it probably over ten times. I think that something, whether it be big or small, is going to send him over the edge. I think that Holden will do something horribly wrong and immediately regret it. It’s going to be the turning point for Holden. Yet again, who knows? This is just how I feel.
I agree Nicole he does know that he is crazy. I think Allie’s death will have something to do with it, along with other small things like you said.
I agree Nicole. Holden is always calling himself a “madman” so I believe that he might admit himself.
Nicole, I agree that Holden already knows that he is crazy but I do not think that he will admit himself into to the institute. I think that Holden’s parents will be the ones that see his problem and talk him into going to the mental institute to get better.
I think he will end up getting psychoanalyzed and I think that’s why he ends up at the mental institution in California. I don’t see any other way of how he would end up in there.
Yeah it is very possible that they will do that to him. Holden has a lot that has happened to him and he has went through things he should never have had happen to him as a young kid.
I think that too I just wish he would have gotten the help he needed earlier. Instead of now which is way later and after the fact.
I know this book takes place in a different time than ours but how in the world was Holden able to get drunk at a bar since he is underage and clearly doesn’t look old enough to be 21. Maybe the bar he went to was a shadier type of bar but still, almost every instance before this he was seen as younger than 21. When he danced with the women and when he tried to order a scotch and soda are just a couple of examples.
I was wondering how he was getting drunk as well. He tells us of times that bartenders or waiters won’t allow him to have alcohol, so how is he getting it or is this part of his imagination.
That is a really good point. There had to have been something different about this bar. Especially after so many experiences where Holden has been caught acting older than what he really is. Even though Holden has been caught time after time before, he still is very confident walking into a bar and acting as if he is really 21.
I was wondering how he was getting drunk because he isn’t 21. Which he clearly doesn’t look that old either. He is always seen by other people younger than 21 so what changes about how the people in the bar see him. I think he goes to the bars to drink away his pain,but at the same time when you wake up the pain will still be there. I think he also goes to the bar for the attention of the girls and people don’t judge him or care about his life.
I agree with you Pick, how can he drink in a bar. Is the bartender not smart enough to to figure out that he’s not old enough. He must look old though because everyone he flirts with or asks to get a drink asks him how old he is. Holden always lies to them and tells them at he’s older than what he is.
Well in the time that I believe this book is set the drinking age was 18 and Holden is 16 at this point I believe but he also is going to bars where he knows they will not care how old he was because they just want to sell drinks.
The book seems to set itself to be in the earlier time period. I think that the bartender knows but he is not worried with the fact of getting caught. They ask how old he is and he lies to them, so we know that they are curious of his age.
Or he could be lying to us about being drunk because he is a really good liar from what he told us in the beginning of the novel.
I think he is really drunk and some how he is getting the alcohol from the bartender. He is a very good liar and lies a lot through out the book so he could very well be lying to the bartender about his age like he’s been trying to do in past situations.
True, he is a great liar but thats not a good trait to have in a person.
I don’t think they cared back then and if so it was only a couple bars that told him no. There is no way people think he is 21 or older. Like you said Pick when he danced with the three women at the bar how could they not tell? Everyone asks him how old he is. Like the cab drivers when he always asks them to go get a drink. You would think he would get the hint after a couple times.
Exactly, Pick! I thought the same thing. He’s only a teenager…not even 18 yet! Holden is CONSTANTLY questioned about his age throughout the entire book, but somehow he manages to not only drink alcohol, but get DRUNK. Like you said, maybe the bar was a sketchy one…
Holden needs to get his life together or he is going to end up dead and thats not going to help him any.
Very good point Michael, The bar must not have been very strict with the age of the consumers. The time period in the story is not so early that the drinking age law does not apply to him. All laws that pertain to Holden’s time frame was within all laws.
Why does Holden always like to act like he got shot in the stomach? When he was at the bar he got drunk and he was acting like he got shot in the stomach again. I think he doesn’t like people acting all phony. That’s why is he acting like he got shot.
I don’t even know what to think about that. Why does he act like he is getting shot all the time? Maybe it’s just his way of leaving reality? Maybe it is easier for his to feel bad for himself?
I think Holden acts like he is getting shot all the time because there is something mentally wrong with him. It’s all in his head obviously. Maybe if he acts like he is getting shot he thinks someone will help him.
Taryn I think Holden acts like this because he is hurting emotionally and mentally. He is hurting because of what all has happened to him. He has lost Allie, he hardly gets to see his family and Jane who he grew up with, he gets kicked out of boarding school and then he is lonely and scared to go back to his house. This is just my opinion on why he is doing the whole shot in the gut thing.
I don’t even know why Holden acts like he got shot in the stomach. He has done this a few other times throughout the novel as well. I think he wants attention and so this is why he maybe does it.
I thought that, too, maybe. But he did it in his hotel room when he was all alone. So I don’t think its so much for the attention from other people, its something for himself.
True. I find this weird, too. It’s symbolism in the book for sure, but what does it mean for Holden? Does pretending he got shot make him feel better about being mentally hurt from his brother’s death? This isn’t the first time like you said either. I don’t know what to think of him fantasizing about this. It’s definitely a unique thing that Holden does.
Holden is emotionally wounded by the loss of his brother Allie, so he fantasizes about having a gun shot wound. In a way it is symbolic of his actual wounds. Holden has to be hurting, left with a mental scar that will never go away. This is my opinion of why he pretends to be wounded, not once but twice.
We see that when Holden gets drunk he thinks of violent things, such as when he talks about killing Maurice. He is always talking about being injured when he is drunk. Could this quite possibly be delusion or the start of his insanity.
That is very true Brittney he was acting very violent that could lead to him going to the looney bin because he ends up doing something he regrets.
Yeah it is possible that he may end up doing something bad and get himself in trouble. It is kind of weird how he has all these violent thoughts at that age I wonder if it is because he has been around older kids for most of his life and he has not been around his age kids for him to mature properly.
That’s a good point I thought that myself. It’s more than likely foreshadowing when he starts actually going fully insane.
I understand what you’re saying. I have wondered the same thing. On one end I see the fact the it could be delusion and the only way he is showing that he is in pain. On the other hand I feel like this is leading up to why he is in the mental institution.
I also wondered if this was leading up to him being sent to a mental institution. We see he talks about killing Maurice, being shot in the stomach, and also talks about him dying as well. He also went through his brother Allie’s death. Holden talks about not liking cemeteries either.
Phoebe seems a lot different to me than the way Holden described her before. I see a lot of the same characteristics between Holden and Phoebe so I wonder if she will grow up similar to Holden.
That would be crazy if she ended up like Holden and her actions caused her to be put in a mental hospital like Holden.
She seems very mature. I wonder how she feels about Holden. Holden thinks very highly of Phoebe, so I wonder if she thinks the same.
I think she seems very mature too, I don’t really think she’ll become crazy but I wonder if her parents will ship her off and if she’ll act out as well. She does get upset at Holden though and he says she gets good grades so maybe she’ll be successful.
Phoebe seemed very mature for her age. She is very smart for how young she is as well. It shows that Phoebe thinks highly about Holden because she gets very upset when she figures out that he has been kicked out of school. She is mature because she is terrified about what her father is going to do with Holden when he figures out he has been kicked out of school. Most little girls don’t think and care about their older brothers like that.
One thing is fore sure though she is really smart like Holden said she was she even understood that Holden is going to be in trouble for getting kicked out of school.
Phoebe is really mature for her age. We see this when the book tells us that she likes to go to the museum. Most kids at that age just want to play inside and run around. She also knows what could happen to Holden for failing school so many times. Phoebe is really scared for Holden when she finds out that he got kicked out of school again. I was wondering if his dad did something to him the last time he failed.
I see where Phoebe was coming from though when she got mad because he got kicked out of another school. She was probably scared because she knew her dad wouldn’t handle it very lightly. Phoebe probably sees that Holden is a little odd. I don’t think she will grow up to be anything like him because her parents didn’t send her off like they did him.
Why doe you think Phoebe is so concerned that Holden was kicked out of another school? I don’t think she is old enough to understand the future consequences out so maybe she is just scared that their dad will be very angry at Holden. What is your opinions?
I think she has good reason to be scared. She is young and little and sees her dad as a big man. But Holden has been kicked out before? What did his dad do then? Did you do something that is giving Phoebe a reason to be so scared?
I wonder if their father has beat Holden before? Maybe he is violent if Phoebe is so worried about it. Holden does not seem scared though so maybe she is just worried because she is young.
That is what I want to know Taryn, Her dad must have done something very bad to Holden before to make her freak out that bad. He must have beaten Holden senseless or something. That could explain while Holden is afraid of his parents. Well, what ever her father has done must be terrible because most little girls don’t freak out that much when their brother gets into trouble.
She seems like she is old enough to know what is going on. Holden, tells us all the time how intelligent she is. We can see that she is really smart also by the notebook that she writes in that Holden was reading. She has probably witnessed all the time them getting very angery at Holden for getting kicked out of schools from previous times, so she is scared as to what will happen this time. She absolutly loves Holden and she does not want anything to happen to him.
I think Phoebe is scared for Holden. It’s not his first time getting kicked out of school and maybe Holden’s dad yells at Holden and Phoebe doesn’t like that. Maybe she’s scared of what’s going to happen to Holden once their parents find out. Phoebe loves her Brother and doesn’t want him to go away.
Phoebe is definitely scared for Holden. She’s smart and how she put two and two together to realize he’s been kicked out proves it. She definitely seems to be afraid of how her father will react when he finds out. At the end of the chapter I think she’s both scared for him and knows he has to leave to avoid their father but at the same time she loves him and doesn’t want him to go.
I think that she just knew that there dad was going to be really mad and was going to hurt Holden so she was scared of what was going to happen to him. I don’t think she knows what is going to happen in the future.
Phoebe is concerned that Holden was kicked out of boarding school because she knows her parents will be upset with Holden. She is very mature for her age, so she might understand that it is important to have success during school. She probably looks down on Holden now and she is worried about how angry their dad is going to be at Holden.
Phoebe really cares for her brother’s well being, which could be why she is so concerned. She knows their parents will be very angry with Holden and could potentially send him away to another school, which she obviously doesn’t want to happen. She barley sees her brother as it is, so if he gets sent away again she won’t see him for awhile after that. She even says multiple time that their dad is going to kill Holden. “Daddy’ll kill you” (Salinger 166).
Holden finally goes home to see Pheobe!!! We can see that Pheobe adores Holden just as much as he adores her. She was very excited to see him. Their parenst must be absent from her life a lot. Maybe they all have not found closure since Allie’s death and they all find different things to do to occupy themselves day by day.
Phoebe was clearly excited to see Holden, she practically jumped out of bed when she saw him. You could tell she was very excited to tell him stories too.
You can definitely see that Phoebe and Holden are very close she was very excited to see him and she cared so much for him when she found out that he got kicked out of school she started to cover her head with the pillow and wouldn’t come out because she was scared that there dad was going to kill Holden!
As Holden was going past his parents room he was worried that his mom might be up. He was worried about this because he said, “She’s nervous as hell. Half the time she’s up all night smoking cigarettes.” This could be a sign that she hasn’t found closure at all, we see many other things that point to Holden and he not finding closure.
Holden’s mom is definitely still affected by the fact that her son, Allie, passed away. However, any mom in their right mind would. She might not have had any closure with Allie. Holden also didn’t have closure because he couldn’t attend Allie’s funeral. I could not imagine what Holden’s family went through during that time.
We can see that Holden is very close with Pheobe. Holden drops the record that he buys for Pheobe. He gives it to her and she still keeps it just because it was from her big brother. If she didn’t care about Holden she would have just thrown the broken record away.
One thing I can say I really admire about Holden, is that he really does love children. We have discussed together as a class with the way he treats children. For example, he is intrigued with the little boy singing on the street, or when he helps to the children on the seesaw. However he shows the most affection with his sister.(Which is only natural.) He loves her, he isn’t afraid to show affection, and loves to do things with her. He may be one twisted guy, but he sure is nice to kids.
He only had good things to say about Phoebe. I think maybe this came from Allie. I wonder if he would be this loving towards kids if it weren’t for the experience of loosing his kid brother.
YES. I think thats exactly it.
I see where your comming from Taryn. My brother and I fight all the time, but if we were to have another sibling that died like in Holden’s situation then I wouldn’t want to fight with my brother at all. Losing someone close can really change a persons life.
He is very nice to children, which I adore as well, but I do not think he realizes he comes off as “stranger danger.” The children on the see-saw seemed creeped out by him, which is understandable. If I was a child on the playground and an (almost) grown man came up to me I may be a little worried or creeped out too. I do not think Holden understand boundaries with strangers.
Hah! And your point can be backed up in many ways. LIke the cab driver? how he offered to have drinks with him? I completely agree.
I was thinking the same thing, he comes off as frightening. He’s a teenage boy that walks up to random kids and tries to help them and admires them. He creeps out not only the little kids but adults too! When he went up to the ladies at the hotel in the lavender room they were laughing at him almost. It was like heres this teenage boy who thinks he’s all grown up and trying to hit on us. I’m sure they found it hilarious but it’s still creepy.
Holden is respectful when it comes to kids. His attitude towards kids compared to other adults is completely different. Holden sees the innocence in children and that is why he is polite and nice to them. We see this especially with the way he talks about Jane, and his younger sister, Phoebe.
I think that Holden is so respectful to kids because he is still trying to find closure with his brother Allie’s death. Maybe talking to the kids helps Holden deal with it. It might have helped him when he was unable to see his sister also.
I agree Anna, Holden tries to act all bad around adults and smoke and drink. Then with kids he talks and acts differently. The reason being is because like you said the kids he sees innocents in. You see this with Jane and his younger sister Phoebe. Also I think the reason he does not have sex with the prostitute is because she is sort of young and he sees innocents in her as well.
Yes, I agree. Holden has an immense love for kids…and like you said this could be because his brother died…I don’t know what I would do if I lost one of my siblings….I would be inconsolable. I’d be LOST. Losing one of them would mentally destroy me. This could definitely be the reason he loves Phoebe and other children so much.
Holden works very well with the children. A big part that helped obtain this characteristic was Allie. Allie was Holden’s best friend and he would do anything for his brother. Holden admires little kids and treats them with much respect. It is much different than his personality towards adults and people his age.
I really would like to know what Holden’s fascination with ducks is about!!! He seems really interested in where they go when the lake freezes. I wonder why he wants to know so bad. Any opinions?
Hahahah. Very true, Brooke. Not going to lie, I laughed at this..Anyways, I have been wondering the same thing. He is like so intrigued by them, it’s so weird…It’s symbolism for the readers, but what does it mean for Holden?!? All the symbolism in the book makes sense, but it doesn’t make sense for Holden. What do ducks have to do with anything?!
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