Place your blogs for Chapters 12-14 here.
I thought Holden said that he wasn’t a virgin? Wasnt he talking about in an earlier chapter how he had been with a couple of girls? He was probably lying about the whole thing as he does most things. What do you guys think he’s telling the truth about and what he’s lying about?
This makes me wonder if we can still believe Holden at all. We are starting to catch more of his lies that we first believed.
I honestly do not trust holden as a narrator and I say this because of his habit of lying or exaggerating the truth. It seems that anything he does say will either be contradicted or proven wrong later in the book.
This makes me not trust Holden even more. Holden says he does all of the things that he says because he does not want to make it look like he is innocent. I think that his thought process is that girls do not like innocent guys so he needs to make himself sound cool.
He did say something about him being a virgin still. I feel like this might not be the first time he has lied to us. He might be lying about this whole story. I feel like I can’t trust anything he is saying anymore, unless there is a person that is with him. It is also harder and harder to like him.
Holden told us he has had plenty of attempts but would always stop when they said to stop. So technically he still is a virgin.
He admits to being a virgin. He tells about coming close to having sex with girls but he never actually goes through with it. Page 92 Holden says,” If you want to know the truth, Im a virgin. I really am”.
I have come to the conclusion that I really don’t like him. I don’t trust him, he has no direction in life and knows it AND doesn’t care. I understand that he had a horrible experience with his brother dying and his parents shipping him off… but he is just plain annoying. And I’m just waiting for the moment when he gets his wakeup call.
Casey, if you just take a step back and enjoy reading the book instead of judging Holden’s every action you might actually begin to at least understand why he is the way he is. We aren’t even half way through the book and have so much more to learn about him. Give it sometime. We are just now grasping an understanding of who Holden is and why he is the way he is. Breathe Casey! I enjoy reading this book, so I think you will too!
Casey I completely agree with this. Holden does’t want help, he does’t want to have a direction in life. To me, Holden just would rather stay in a depressed state of mind than go find the help he need to get better. I know that the death of his brother was a horrible experience but he can not live in the past. Holden needs to get everything figured out and make himself happy first.
Yeah your right. This is just a make up blog, but now that we’ve read more I am enjoying it more. I still think he is a little crazy, but I am enjoying him more.
He said in one of the previous chapters that he is a virgin, which reveals why he doesn’t know what he is doing. I think he is telling the truth, considering he stops when girls ask him to. He is different than other guys, he actually feels sorry for girls, who he believes are dumb and eventually lose their minds. Holden said he is a terrific liar, but this seems to be the only thing he has been truthful about. When he was with the prostitute he made up an excuse so he didn’t have to sleep with her, he told her he had just had an operation which she had believed. This is just my opinion of Holden.
Yeah Holden seems to be telling the truth about what he has done with girls in the past. If he was not a virgin he would have been fine with having sex with a prostitute unless he actually has morals in the way he thinks and believes in knowing the girl first but thats just what I have kind of observed.
I agree with you Brooke, I think this is the only thing that Holden was truthful about. He does seem unsure about what he is supposed to do and he always comes up with an excuse as to why he doesn’t want to. We see this with the prostitute. What I am unsure about is if he is lying about almost having sex multiple times before.
Good point Brooke. Many things Holden does I don’t get because they do not make sense but the whole decision with sex and girls I like. He is respectful and cares about them. Like you said he stops when they say stop unlike some other guys. Then he does not feel right having sex with the prostitute because he does not know her and she is young. In this part of the novel he is making the right decisions and making sense but man some of the other things just blow my mind. Like not going straight home when he leaves boarding school and lying all the time.
I agree with you, Dallas. Holden keeps exaggerating the truth, making up lies, and continues to not go home after he is kicked out of his boarding school. He is just making things worse for himself. By him not going home, he is prolonging the punishment he might receive. He did make the right decision to try to stand up to Maurice, and by not doing things with the prostitute.
I do think that he is telling the truth about him being a virgin. He stops when girls ask him too, and that is one part that shows he is still a virgin, he didn’t know what to do. Holden is a compulsive liar!
Yeah he’s a virgin. Im not sure what to trust anymore? But when he got in the uncomfortable position with the hooker, he showed who he really was and what his true thoughts are. Which is perfectly human.
I don’t really understand why Holden would rather stay at a crummy hotel, instead of being at home with Phoebe and his parents. I understand he wants to give his parents time to cool down, after finding out that their son was kicked out of another school. If it was me, I would rather take the wrath of my parents than stay there all by myself in New York.
You bring up an interesting point, Brooke. Why would Holden choose to stay at hotel when most normal kids would go home? This is open to anyone.
Holden does not choose to go home because he does not want to be there until after his parents get the letter stating that he is no longer a student at school. I would have done the same considering my parents would have expected me to tell them before the school did.
The reason he is leaving is because he misses home. He wants attention and wants to be back home. That is why he acts up and flunks out at boarding school. He wants to go home thats why he left and then when he leaves he does not go straight home. I don’t get that at all! He says well I don’t want to talk to my parents well at some point he is going to have to talk to them so might as well went home right away. Holden does not make sense on a lot of what he does.
I feel that Holden decided to stay at a hotel instead of going home early because he didn’t want to see his parents. He knows from his past experiences that his parents don’t take it easy on him when he gets kicked out of schools. They obviously push him away and don’t want him at home.
I never really thought about this until now, but very interesting point. Holden has been so busy telling us about minor little details and his fantasies that I forgot why he was alone in the first place. I don’t know, but Holden is one weird kid so maybe he enjoys being alone. After all, each and every time someone wants to chat with him or spend time with him, he comes up with an excuse so he can leave. He did this to Jane, Lillian Simmons and the prostitute. Holden is definitely an odd one.
I believe that he stays in the hotel because he doesn’t want to return home to his parents being disappointed in him for being kicked out of pencey. I also think that he believes that he is older than he actually is and doesn’t really think twice about staying at a hotel because that is the adult thing to do.
I think that Holden is confused. I think that he choses to stay in the hotel room because it more adult to do that. Normal kids want to go home to their parents, but Holden didn’t want too.
I think that Holden chooses to stay at the hotel because he does not have a close bond with his family. Since he has been neglected by his parents after the death of his younger brother, Holden does not like to talk to his parents. I think that he has chosen to stay at the hotel so he can has so peace while he deals with his problems.
He chose the hotel because he has not told his parents that he was kicked out of Pencey so he can’t go home just yet.
His parents clearly do not care about him. They have not called at all to check up on him since we have been reading and they sent him off to school in the first place. I would not want to go home either.
The reason why Holden doesn’t leave the hotel is he wants to stay there for a few days in secret before he goes home and tells his parents that he got kicked out of school again. The other reason that he stays at that the hotel is lonely and want to find friends. Holden thinks he’s older so he can stay in a hotel and drink beer, talk to older ladies and not go home right away.
Holden is choosing to stay in New York at the hotel instead of going home because he knows that his parents will just send him to another school. Why even go home when his parents do not seem to care and will just ship him off to the next school. If his parents actually allowed him to stay home and be with his family he would be a lot better. His parents see that he is acting out all the time and they cannot control him, so thats why he is flunking out of school. If his parents keep him home and allow him to go to school where they live and come home every night, he might actually start applying himself in school and stop acting out all the time. I have a feeling there is much more to why his parents want nothing to do with him and just keep sending him off to another school.
I feel like Holden may have stayed at the hotel so that he had time to relax before his parents found out that he had been kicked out. He more than likely just wanted to get away and have time to himself to think about everything and calm down after the Jane and Stradlater incident. He probably didn’t know that hotel was as cumby as it was, although since he is a compulsive liar he may have known the whole time.
I think that Holden is afraid to face his parents because they might punish him. The other side of me thinks that he doesn’t want to go home because it reminds him of his brother too much. By him not going home, it’s making things worse so when he does decide to go back.
I think Holden chooses to stay in a hotel because he is afraid of what his parents may say. But I believe that he will get in more trouble for going to a hotel instead of going home and having to tell his parents the truth. I don’t believe that Holden truly understands what his parents feel.
I think that Holden went to the hotel to stay because he didn’t want to deal with his parents when he got home. I believe that Holden will get in more trouble for going to the hotel instead of going home where he should have went.
Holden is still uncomfortable and down about flunking out of school. He knows his parents wont be happy and he knows there is a big possibility of him being sipped off again. There is also the fact that he thinks he’s pretty mature fore his age. So with these two things combined, he chooses to stay at a hotel.
Holden may think that if he goes home right away his parents will just send him to another school. Maybe it has something to do with that because he knows that is probably what they are going to do. Holden may have done this before, leaving the school before his parents found out he was kicked out, and when he got there they just sent him away.
Yeah it kind of seems like Holden is stalling for some reason maybe it is because he is afraid that he is just going to be sent away again. The other thing it seems he is doing is trying to act like an adult with his actions and trying to do things adults do but he clearly is not and he can not actually do what he wants to most of the time do to the fact he is only 16.
I do think part of it is because he thinks that his parents will send him away but I also think that part of it is because there’s just something mentally wrong with him and he just wonders, goes, does and says whatever, wherever he wants.
Exactly right, he flunks out of boarding school because he misses home and is not happy. Since he is not happy he acts up and fails classes so he gets kicked out. Then he does not go home that is weird I think. I mean like you said he is going to feel the wrath from his parents sooner or later and I would get it over with rather than hang out with complete strangers.
Maybe Holden is staying in New York so that he can still be close to Jane. Even though they don’t have much of a relationship he still thinks about her and cares for her. If he went home he would be really far away from her but he can’t seem to get her off his mind.
That’s a good point Stephen. I never really thought about that. Holden knows that him and Jane aren’t as close anymore, but still has her on his mind all the time. If he went home I am sure she would still be on his mind he would just be so far away.
This is why I thought that he was staying New York because of Jane. Even though they don’t talk much with each other. If he went back home we would never get see her, and he doesn’t want that.
That could definitely be a reason as to why Holden stays in New York. I feel like he does not want ruin the perfect image he has of Jane by seeing her, but at the same time maybe he just feels more comfortable with being more close to her.
I don’t think Holden is staying in New York for Jane. I would understand that if they were actually seeing each other but they haven’t. I think he is just apprehensive to go home because he does not want to face his parents.
I have noticed that over the course of Holden’s stories. I have forgotten that he is in a mental institution. Holden seems to go off on any given subject. Does anyone else think the same?
I agree with you Greg. I’m wondering when exactly we will find out what’s going on and how he got into the mental institution. It kind of just seems to be going on about nothing at all.
Good point Bethany. I never thought about Holden not wanting to go home because his parents might send him off to another boarding school or kick him out. There is definitely something wrong with him and I am starting to see why he is in a mental institution. Like you said he does and says whatever he wants, he smokes like a chimney and he is drinking even though he is not of age. There has to be a few other events that go on to lead to him getting there. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
I think that with Holden going to the hotel instead of home may be a big part of why he is in the mental institution. I really want to know the whole reason though and why Holden is so messed up.
It is more the fact that Holden is retelling his past and is not coming back to present time. He is basically writing a book per-say about what has happened to him in the past.
I just really want to know when he’s going to get to the point about the mental institution and what’s really wrong with him. I’m very curious to know what’s going to happen next!
He does seem to jump around a lot when telling us things. But I do see what Zeb is saying he is telling us what he has already done, so it might be because of that he is jumping around. Since Holden is in a mental institution I wonder if he is living in his past and thats why he keeps getting off subject.
I agree 100%. I keep forgetting why he is telling the story because he rambles on and on about anything and everything. It’s really confusing and frustrating to me actually. The story he is telling has no stability and you can tell his mind wanders often. For whatever reason, he keeps asking cabdrivers about the ducks….which is really weird to me. Do you think that maybe there is some symbolism with the ducks??? However, I have no idea what it could be a symbol of….just seems weird to me that he keeps bringing them up.
This is true. I do for get about the story because he talks about so much and goes on and on. This is what confuses me. That was weird to me, that he keeps on asking the cab driver about the ducks. I do think that there is some type of symbolism going on with this duck thing.
I was wondering the same thing about the ducks? Like whats up with the ducks? Is there something I missed that links them to something in his life? The second time he brings up the ducks and the other cab driver went on about the fish I remember thinking am I missing something? Is this important? But you have a good point he just wanders from one subject to another so fast. It is very confusing but interesting at the same time.
Yeah he does seem to go off on a tangent at times and it can be very easy to get distracted from the point of the story to discover why he in a mental institution in the first place. Its almost like he is procrastinating telling the truth of why he is in the mental institution. I know when i want to keep from telling the truth I am quick to change subjects too.
I think exactly the same. He is like a little kid around shiny objects he just changes the subject or what he is doing at any given moment.
Yes I forgot too, I am anxious to find out more about the present instead of the past.
I agree Greg! While we are reading, Holden often scatters off to another topic, or has repeated himself a couple of times. It’s kind of a struggle to understand some parts, but hopefully we find out more about how he got into the mental institution.
I find it odd that Holden associates with strangers, but not with people that he knows. He will hold a conversation with them, asking them to drink with him, even though they are complete strangers that he has never met a day in his life. In a way that is kind of dangerous, especially in New York late at night. He encounters one moment of danger when Maurice and Sunny come forcefully into his room taking five extra bucks. I wonder why he puts himself in such danger???
I’m not sure if he necessarily realizes that he is putting himself in danger I think he is to busy trying to act like a grown man to realize what he is doing to himself.
I think he knows what he’s doing but I just don’t think he cares and probably part of it is whatever is wrong with him mentally as well. Sane and normal people don’t ask strangers to have drinks with them and run around New York all night by themselves. There’s defiantly something seriously wrong with him!
I agree with you Bethany, there is defiantly something mentally wrong with Holden. Maybe the death of his brother could have contributed to his mental problems and why he is so different and distant from people.
I believe that the reason that Holden puts himself in danger is because he feels as if things could not be any worse with what has happened in the story so far. Holden likes imagining what he could and would do in dangerous situations that he puts himself into.
I think Holden is doing this because he feels like the only person he can really talk to is Phoebe. Holden knows that if he were to try and call her his mother would pick up. It may be easier for him to talk to strangers because they do not know him so he can tell them anything he wants and they probably wouldn’t remember. Plus Holden said he is a really good liar so he would be able to lie to them and the strangers would never know if it was true or not.
Holden got lucky when Maurice and Sunny came to his room. He could have got hurt a lot worse and they could have taken all of his money if they wanted to. I would say that Holden got let off easy that time because if it were someone else he might not have gotten so lucky.
It is very weird that Holden avoids talking to people he knows. He prefers talking to total strangers. Holden is such a good liar and he knows that he can lie to strangers so maybe that’s one of the reasons he talks to complete strangers. All of the strangers that he meets, he calls them phony. He doesn’t seem to get along with anyone besides his younger sister, Phoebe.
I feel that Holden talks to complete strangers and asks them to have a drink with him because they don’t know his real age! It is very dangerous and we see that when the prostitute comes to his room. When Holden didn’t give Sunny $10 he just gave her $5 he could have got hurt really bad when they came back to get the rest of the money. Like Stephen said they could have taken all of his money and could have hurt him more than they did.
Holden most likely just feels lonely and wants someone to talk to. He never really gets to talk to anyone he knows so he makes conversation with complete strangers. Like when he is dancing with the blonde in the lavender room, they want to leave but he tries getting them to stay a little longer.
That is quite odd, Brooke. Like why talk to strangers, stay alone in a hotel in New York and invite prostitutes into his room when you have a home and a family waiting for you? Like Zeb said, I think that he is so obsessed with the idea of being an adult, that he loses some common sense. Maybe he feels that since he is an adult, he doesn’t have to worry about anything and that he is indestructible. What Holden doesn’t realize is that he is still young and being an adult does not make you invincible. His perception of being an adult is messed up.
I find it very strange that Holden has the guts to invite a prostitute into his room. I know they didn’t do anything but talk but i still find it extremely weird to think about. I mean he is only a teen and already doing all of this stuff.
I find it very weird and unusual that Holden would rather talk to strangers then friends. There are many cases where he could have talked to someone he knew but for some reason chose not to. His older brother’s ex-girlfriend tried to converse with him, but he wouldn’t let her. He also would talk to the guys at the school. For some very strange reason he rather talk to complete strangers. I think he does it because he loves to lie about his name and things like that to random people since they don’t know the truth.
I think most of the reason why Holden associates with strangers rather than family or people he knows is because he wants to be treated like he’s grown, he wants to be viewed as an adult and the people that know him don’t treat him that way. A good example would be when he goes to visit his teacher in the beginning, he gets not really scolded but a good lecture about why he should care about what he puts into his grades and classes. He doesn’t want to be treated like someone in school. I agree that he doesn’t realize the dangers but Maurice and Sunny are a great example of why he should be worried.
Why does Holden have little fantasies in his head? I noticed that he did this not only with the bullet, but with the guy who stole his gloves…and both of them are kind of violent and mean. I think that this is something very childish…to envision getting revenge on someone. When you’re young and someone hurts you, you picture yourself being a “tough guy” and getting back at the person who hurt you since you’re little and can’t do it in real life. I don’t know….Holden is weird…and something definitely is wrong with him.
I think his fantasies are violent because that’s all he really knows how to be. He parents never taught him better. He hasn’t really grown up and still acts childish about some things. I really think Holden has a mental problem and no one knows it. Not even him nor his parents. He is a grown up in a little kid body.
Holden definitely acts childish about some things. He judges people he doesn’t even know. He is a very violent person. I am anxious to see the real reason why he ends up in a mental institution and I hope we find out soon.
I never really thought of it like that Nicole. That really makes me think, maybe he had a fantasy in his head and did something bad. That could be the reason that he got sent to the mental hospital.
There definitely is something wrong with him, it’s called being mentally unstable and having fantasies is a side effect of that.
You’ve got to remember that Holden is in a mental institution during the book. I’m still not sure how or why.. I just hope we find out more soon! I worry about Holden and what he will do next. He just needs to face his parents and go back home before something happens to him even worse than the whole situation with Maurice and Sunny. Very good observation though!
As we continue to read, I am realizing that Holden is a person who is very quick to judge. When he goes to Ernie’s he is talking about the people at the tables around him and he says he is surrounded by jerks. He was making fun of a funny looking guy and a funny looking girl. He says that they were very boring and that he was the most boring guy he has ever listened to. Then he talks about how the conversation to his right and how it was even worse. For someone who doesn’t have any friends, he isn’t very friendly to people and he is a very judgmental person.
Holden does not take the time to get to know someone before he judges them. He judges them right after he meets them for the first time. Holden is so quick to judge people, so maybe that is why he keeps talking to different strangers. He has already judged everybody he knows.
As the book goes on I thought maybe Holden would get better with his understanding that he isn’t 22 he is 17. But it is getting worse he is going into bars asking for a scotch and soda he doesn’t even look that old and he smokes because he thinks its cool then orders a prostitute and just wants to talk to her i think he is just lonely and wants attention.
I wonder what people think about him ordering alchohol. They say stuff about his age but no one stops it.
He has got caught before but only one time at the last place he ordered a scotch and soda and they didn’t even take a second look at him.
You’re absolutely right Noah, Holden needs to realize that he is a 17 year old boy. If Holden continues to walk around and say that he is 22 he is going to run into some really deep trouble. I feel like Holden might run into trouble with this pimp and him claiming to be 22 is going to get him in deep trouble. I don’t understand why he goes around saying that when it is clear to everyone that he is just a young boy.
Maybe if Holden would realize that he is 17 and not 22 it would help him realize the truth for more things. It could help him get a much better understanding of what he should do and what he has done.
Holden is 16 but his mentality is messed up and he thinks he is really much older, like old enough to go to bars and order alcohol and smoke enoguh cigarettes to become a fricken chimney. Holden can be clearly seen in these past few chapters how many bad habits he has and how deep he is in with them.
How are his parents not checking in with him. Wouldn’t any parent at least call to check on their kid? Maybe they shipped him away because of him acting out.
I also thought about that, that maybe he was acting out after his brother Allie’s death that they sent him away thinking it was the best for him at the time.
I agree with what you are saying Brittney, it is odd that his parents don’t check in with him periodically. That could be the reason why they shipped him off to so many schools, or maybe it is because they just don’t want to deal with him anymore. That could be why he isn’t so close to his parents and would rather talk to his little sister instead of them.
Holden fantasizes about getting shot and having Jane come and help him. Why do you guys think he did this? Maybe it was just a thing for him to make things a little made up.
That what I was thinking but the over all thing I can think of is he is just looking for attention out of all this everything he does id just for attention.
I think it was weird that Holden asked people he didn’t even know to go out and drink with him. The people he knew he didn’t want to have a drink or even talk to him. I also think the only reason he said yes to the prostitute is just to talk to her and not to have sex with her. Holden just likes to be in danger.
Was there something that went on with Jane and Holden that caused him to go into the mental hospital? He brings Jane up an awful lot…..
I thought that he said that too Pick, but I guess that he still is a virgin. This is wear the whole lying thing comes into play.
Holden has continuously judged other people and criticized them. That is giving me a bad image of Holden, he has some of the same qualities that the people he is criticizing do.
I think sometimes Holden thinks a little too much about people. He judges people to easily. I wish we could hear other people’s thoughts about Holden.
He is a very judgmental person. This is a bad quality in normal people but it seems that it fits Holden to the T.
I do not think he is really judging everyone. He just gets annoyed with them and cannot stand to be around them that long. He has a short temper and just says anything that comes to his mind. It’s kinda like us as the class. We all were getting very irritated with who Holden is and judged him, but we truly do not even know who he is yet.
Does anyone else think it’s strange how he brags about being with so many girls yet he is still a virgin and regretted even calling for the hooker?
Hey there is one good thing about Holden! He does have morals! At least he respects sex and feels for women in general.
That is the one point that I looked at and said maybe he is changing but its going to take a lot for me to see that he is actually changing because he has been doing a lot of messed up stuff.
As we continue to read, I am realizing that Holden is a person who is very quick to judge.When he was judge. He says that they were very boring and that he was the most boring guy he has ever listened to.
Holden talks highly about his sister and how he wants to call her to talk to her, but is afraid his parents will answer. I am really hoping that Holden will call Phoebe and she will talk him into coming home. Thats all he needs in life is to be with his family and have their support. Maybe his parents are the ones who admitted him into the mental institution??
It seems like the only people that Holden has good things to talk about are, Jane, Allie and Phoebe. I agree with your Courtney when you said that he needs to be with his family and have their support. Then again, there has to be some reason why he doesn’t want to go home and talk to his parents.
If Holden went home maybe his family could help him come to realization of things. They would support him and take care of him. If his parents were the ones who admitted him into the mental institution, they only did it to help Holden.
Holden thinks nearly every person he meets is a phony. I think the reason he thinks people are phonies is because he is jealous of the lives they have. Jealous of the normality of them and the popularity.
That is a good point Alanna. He calls so many people phonies, even though he is a big phony. Like you said, it could be because he is jealous of them, wishing he was them.
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